&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;UWC HEARING - DAY 1 - MONDAY 5 AUGUST 1996



CASE NO:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;CT/00222

VICTIM:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;CLIVE CUPIDO [son]

NATURE OF VIOLENCE:&#9;&#9;SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE

TESTIMONY FROM:&#9;&#9;MAUREEN CUPIDO [mother]



CHAIRPERSON: ... who was shot in 1985.

MS CUPIDO: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Shot and killed.In a moment I am going to ask one of our Commissioners to assist you, but before that would you please stand for the taking of the oath.

MAUREEN CUPIDO&#9;&#9;&#9;Duly sworn states

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, will you please be seated.

--- Thank you.

&#9;Ms Burton is going to take over from me now and she - I will pass the mic on to her.

MS BURTON: Thank you Chairperson, hello Ms Cupido and welcome again.

--- Hello and thank you very much for hearing me.

&#9;Ms Cupido your son Clive was at school at Kasselsvlei Senior Secondary School in 1985, is that right? --- That's right.

&#9;Right, and in the evenings after school he use to go and study with a friend at the friend's house. --- That's right.

&#9;Is that right, that friend was Albert van der Berg, is that right? --- That's right.

&#9;Yes, and so on that night of the 29th of August he was with his friend studying.--- That's right.

&#9;That's right, okay, so you weren't surprised when he didn't come home in the early part of the evening because you knew that he was with his friend. --- That's right.

&#9;But that was a very tensed time, August 1985 in the areas around Cape Town.There was the planning for the Pollsmoor march and there were - there were riots and there were a number of things going on.So you probably were a bit worried about all the young people at that time. --- Yes.

&#9;And was Clive involved in student movements or student organizations? --- No.

&#9;Not that you know of? --- No.

&#9;Now how did you hear then what had happened to him on that night? --- Well I was sitting, and me and my husband was sitting waiting for Clive to come home.Because that's the day that Boesak and Tutu had the march in Cape Town.Clive came home early - eleven o'clock the morning and then he told me this march is going to have a lot of trouble.Little knowing that he is going to be killed and then he went to this friend and he sat - he first then have supper and then he went to his friend, and that was early hours, early.And then we - we wait for Clive to come home, because my husband never sits, wait for his children, I am the only one.And then suddenly I just fell asleep and then I stood up and I went to my bedroom and as I went to my bedroom to get onto my bed, I heard the shots, because before the shots, I heard gave three - three thumps, I just -my heart just went you know. And then I asked God if it's my child, take him away, I don't want him to be paralyzed.Little knowing it was my child.And just after the shots, this chaps, this children running to our house and all they said, Ms Cupido is Clive here.I told them no.But they didn't want to say anything, they just asked and I - I couldn't go, it was say past eleven and then my husband and my daughter, they took the car and they went out with the car to the hospital. Because apparently they didn't come tell us our son was shot, no-one came to tell us.They came to fetch the body already, but now my husband went straight to the hospital, Tygerberg.Apparently when he came there, he and my daughter - so when they saw him, so he asked one of the porters if here - a body came in here, they didn't want to answer him.But he said he could of smelled the death, he could of smelled the death when he passed that certain ambulance.And then they pushed the ambulance through the door and then the nurses came out and they all barricaded the ambulance so that this people in the car couldn't see which - who is in the ambulance.But my husband recognized my son's hair, because he's got - he had lovely black hair, he just saw the hair.And apparently when he went inside, this Lawrence Davids was sitting there, he was so shocked to see my husband and he asked what happened.And my husband didn't answer him.And it's only afterwards when the body went into the hospital that they said, the next morning they said he was dead.So we had to go to Salt River Mortuary to identify my husband - my sons body, that's all. 

&#9;Thank you Ms Cupido.Now you told us that there was somebody else there when your son was killed, Errol van Rensburg. --- Errol van Rensburg.

&#9;Was he a friend of your son's? --- Not actually, but he as there, he is the key witness. And this chap that sat at the hospital, Lawrence Davids. 

&#9;So Errol was with Clive when they were - was Errol also

injured? --- Errol wasn't injured. But I believe Lawrence Davids he was injured, because he kept the policeman, they all ran onto a roof, and he kept the policeman - he sort of grab him and with this struggle the policeman's gun fell.And he called for versterkings and then Lawrence jumped off the building.So Lawrence was totally out of the case, but Lawrence is sitting in a psychiatrist hospital in Mitchell's Plain from that time onwards till today.On so they blamed my son Clive Cupido that's the one that kept the policeman, but in the meantime it was Lawrence you see.Now Lawrence is still in that hospital all these years and I would like Lawrence to lead a normal life, he must come out of there and he must tell the truth of what happened that night.

&#9;Thank you, thank you Ms Cupido.There were - after - after Clive's death there was an inquest. --- That's right.

&#9;And we have followed up the inquest report and the Magistrate found that the cause of death was a gunshot wound on the chest and that no-one can be held responsible for the cause of death. You know the name of the person who shot Clive, don't you? --- Yes.

&#9;Who was that - don't worry - don't worry if you have to look it up in your ... --- No it's Cloete.

&#9;Okay, and he made a statement at the inquest in which he admitted

that he had fired the shot.--- That's right.

&#9;But then he was asked whether it was necessary to do so, and he obviously believed that, that he was in a situation where he had to shoot.--- Ja dead men tells no tales.

&#9;There was somebody else who made a statement and that was

Brian Daniels, do you know Brian Daniels? --- I don't know Brian Daniels, it's the first time I'm heard of Brian Daniels now. 

&#9;The statement that he made was really just to explain the riots and the tension and the unrest that there had been in the area at the time.And he talked about some burning tires and barricades in front of Smart Cleaners, was that somewhere near where Clive was killed? --- Smart Cleaners is in Modderdam Road and we stay in De Wet Street, and Quick Foods is also in Modderdam Road, but it's further up just passed the bridge.So I don't see how if it's burning down there and Clive was on the other side how he - they can shoot him.As I say Lawrence - Lawrence Davids he is in a psychiatric hospital from that incident that night.He's eleven years now and he must come out, he must tell the truth because he was also with.He kept the policeman and the policeman's gun fell.He is the one and Clive was with, he was with and Errol van Rensburg. 

&#9;All right, it is a very-very heavy price to have paid for you to have lost your son and for Lawrence Davids also to have been so seriously affected over such a long time. --- That's right.

&#9;What is it that you would like the Truth Commission to do? --- As you know Clive wasn't - I haven't got such brilliant children, but his whole aim was that he, he wanted to go and work, he was frustrated, he wanted to make his ten finished and then he told me, mommy you can't afford to sent me to a varsity, but I'll go and work and I'll do part-time, I'll do part-time varsity, so I am going to work to help you, you see.That was his aim, he just wanted to finish up his standard ten.And I mean I - I feel that the truth must come out, people should know that it wasn't my son that kept the policeman, it was Lawrence Davids, but seeing that it was a State of Emergency that's why his parents didn't want him to come and testify, so the truth must come out, it must come out, he must be - they must see to him and he must give a statement and - and Errol van Rensburg. 

&#9;Thank you very much Ms Cupido. --- Thank you.

&#9;I know it hasn't been easy for you to come and tell the story and it must of been hanging over you and now you have been very brave and done it, so thank you very much indeed. --- Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions from any other Commissioners, no.I just have one question Ms Cupido.Just help me to be - to make sure that I understand, your son was shot very close to your home.--- Yes.

&#9;In the next door house or the next ... --- The next street, just the next street.

&#9;The next street. --- Ja.

&#9;So there were a lot of people around. --- That's right.

&#9;Now in terms of one report that we have, but it hasn't any eye witnesses names attached to it.It says that after Warrant Officer Cloete shot your son and he admits he shot your son in Court, they heard him say that he had shot the wrong person.--- That's right.

&#9;Now do you know of anybody who specifically heard that? --- We know and we approached the people but the - the day of the Court case they didn't want to come forward. I can't blame the people because that time it was State of Emergency and I mean everybody was frightened to go to jail.

&#9;Yes.--- See, there was a lot of witnesses and everybody say, don't worry we'll help you, we'll help you, we know he is innocent, he was just also curious you know like other children, running and frightened, we'll help you, but they never came forward.

&#9;Ms Cupido it's - we'll follow that up, but it's very generous of you to explain that people were afraid because of the State of Emergency, because when you are directly involved obviously you want everybody who knows the truth, to come and tell the truth. --- That's right.

&#9;And you very, very generous.We'll also follow up in terms of Lawrence to find out exactly what that situation is.Ms Burton has already indicated that you have carried a very-very heavy burden and particularly as extreme force was used against a young boy, and that he died and that you have still no real knowledge of exactly why and why it was so necessary to do that. We hope that we can try and be of some help in continuing the inquiries and obviously we will keep you in touch as it goes on.But I do want to thank you on behalf of the Commission for you willingness to come and appear before us and to share with us some of your own pain and grief, and we wish you God's blessing as you leave us. --- Thank you and the same to you all, thank you very much. 

&#9;Thank you.







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